Search marketing is changing fast with AI, but a lot of SEOs are still trying to measure it the same way they always have.

In this episode, John Morabito, Senior Vice President of Search, Innovation at Stella Rising, joins Austin Willman to talk about how Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) is changing the way brands show up online, both in traditional search results and in AI-generated answers.

John explains why GEO can’t always be measured like a typical direct-response channel. Instead, getting your brand mentioned in AI tools may need to be approached more like brand marketing. He shares how his team looks at signals like AI citations, YouTube and TikTok views, and increases in branded search to understand the bigger impact, even when there’s no perfect way to attribute results.

They also talk about why brand websites make up only a small percentage of AI citations, and why off-site content, like digital PR, listicles, and social media, is becoming more important. John shares how getting featured in existing listicles can influence what AI models cite, and how Stellar Rising uses tools like Search Track, Talk Track, and Chat Track to get a clearer picture of overall search visibility.

Later, John and Austin get into the growing importance of information gain, using platforms like Reddit to uncover insights AI tools don’t always surface directly, and why understanding both algorithms and human behavior, plus having good taste, might be what really sets marketers apart moving forward.

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In this episode, we discuss:

00:00 - 01:23: Introduction

01:23 - 02:42: The Outdated SEO Mindset in a GEO World

02:42 - 05:49: Measuring GEO Through Social and Video Citations

05:49 - 07:51: Correlating Video Views With Brand Search Growth

07:51 - 10:19: Search Track and the Unified Search Measurement Framework

10:19 - 12:24: Why Brand Websites Get Only 6% of Citations

12:24 - 14:24: Owned vs. Earned in the Age of AI Search

14:24 - 17:30: Condé Nast, Hearst, and the Power of Media Citation Share

17:30 - 19:20: The Otterly Experiment: Buying Listicle Placements

19:20 - 21:20: Black Hat Tactics When There Are No Clear Rules

21:20 - 23:04: Web 2.0 Profiles and the Corroboration Wheel

23:04 - 24:27: Human Psychology as the Real Search Algorithm

24:27 - 27:47: Brand Activations, Nav Boost, and the Mercedes Study

27:47 - 28:40: A Quick Detour on Will Reynolds and Wedding Plans

28:40 - 31:08: Information Gain and Creating Content That Matters

31:08 - 33:16: Mining Client Data and Scraping Reddit for Insight

33:16 - 36:40: Taste as the Last Defensible Moat in AI Search

36:40 - 37:18: Closing Thoughts

 Connect with John Morabito

 https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-morabito-29459655/

 https://www.stellarising.com/

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