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We’re asking a question no one would: “Why do I want to do everything at once?” especially when we’re living in the US. It used to be that we just shrug off a tendency to want to do everything. And we say we just lack focus. Uncommitted. Multi-tasking. Busy. Or worse, that we have Attention Deficit Disorder. Or other identity disorder, like Marvel’s Moon Knight hero, who has Dissociative Identity Disorder.The great tragedy when we don’t ask this question, is that we go about living in the US, wanting to do everything at once, and then ending up doing nothing at the same time. The US might be the land of opportunity. But when opportunities are limitless, does it become prohibitive? And if so, what can a self-motivated hard worker do about all this? What if you come from a background with mixed heritage? What if you’re someone who might be under pressure to fulfill their family’s dream of a better life? Or someone with multiple different interests in life? Like psychiatrist Paul Puri, MD, who consulted for the hit Marvel’s series “Moon Knight.” Turns out, psychology and medicine has a lot to say about us that we didn’t already know.Listen to this episode if you are living or are thinking about living in the US, and you a little voice in the back of your head keeps asking: “Why do I want to do everything at once?”—In case you’re out and about without WiFi later, download this episode now.Episode 1 TRANSCRIPT: “Why we want to do everything at once [An Internal Logic]”Thalia Toha: I wanted to start with one of your fun projects. Of course, Marvel's Moon Knight. I wanted to ask you because you're in this really cool space where you talk people. And understand people's identity, people's disorder, problems, and things that people don't normally talk about. I've never heard of DID, dissociative identity disorder, before Moon Knight. And when I saw Moon Knight, I thought, “How interesting. Why is something like this  … Why is it that we've never heard of it before?” Is this kind of like a new diagnosis in the medical community? Or in something that's been around for a long time? And we just don't know much about it?Paul Puri: It's hard to give a firm answer on that. Because even the diagnosis itself is a little controversial. You know, there's kind of the very popularized index cases, which they made a movie of. They're making a new movie with Sally Fields back in the 70s. You know, there are sort of these index cases that really popularize it. But from my understanding of the literature, and I consider myself a relative expert in disassociation—and DID is one of the dissociative disorders—things do suggest that it existed long before the 70s, but in other forms.Like what people would have otherwise considered like “spirit possession.” Things like that. And what they attributed to outside spirits taking over their body later. It became named as sort of different personalities. Or what are called “Alters.” Or aspects of themselves that sort of split off. Paul: So it's probably been around a long time. It's very disputable in terms of how prevalent it is. Probably 1% or less of the population, probably less, has this.My belief is that it's probably rare in its real form. But that dissociation exists in a spectrum form. Kind of across a population. Many of us can dissociate in lesser forms. But that doesn't equate with DID. Thalia: And what exactly is dissociation then? What is  … How is that different from, just having a different interest?The impulse to do something else, having different interests, and Dissociative Identity Disorder in the USPaul: It's a complex subject. And I'm going to do my best to try to boil it down. There's sort of different aspects of our brain functioning or cognitive functioning that exist at a baseline. And they sort of weave together and integrate to create our normal experience. And that's sort of our sense of memory. Our sense of identity. Our sense of time. There's our sense of our emotions. And there's kind of a baseline phenomena of this. And it all sort of weaves together in how we experience life. If one of those were to kind of split off or separate, or exist in the background, our experience in the moment would be different. What's remarkable about the brain is that it can sort of split off functioning in a way where these things can exist outside of our consciousness, our awake consciousness. And it exists and kind of perpetuates in the background. So it may be not a perfect example. But, you know, if you've ever gone to sleep with a problem, and then you wake up with the solution. Or, you have put a problem away. And then the solution pops up for you in the middle of the day. And, and who's been thinking of that? And where did that come from? There’s sort of capabilities inside of us that we sometimes can directly access. And sometimes feels more elusive when we can find the right word for something or can't find the right word. There's sort of a different side to us that is functioning behind the scenes all the time, and that we can't always directly access, even though we want to. So there's this sort of myth that we have a singular identity that I can do what I am in control of me. And that if I want to make changes in myself, it can happen. But across the breadth of human experience, most people have a lot of difficulty in making changes in themselves. And that's because a part of them that's functioning, that's driving a lot of these behaviors, is sort of behind the scenes. So that's like a loose definition of dissociation. And we can have things where we split off our awareness, or our memory of something that might have existed. Because it's not convenient for us. Or, you know, when we start getting more pathological, someone might experience, let's say, a trauma or a terrible experience. And then, because they can't, because it's overwhelming, they just sort of compartmentalize that experience. They lock it away. So they lock it away so that they basically don't have to feel all the feelings that are associated with that. So those are different aspects. Really, association falls into kind of two camps. Which is compartmentalization. How do you lock something away. Or sort of a disconnection from something: how do you disconnect from part of yourself.Paul: And so there's all these different sorts of phenomenon that come up with that, like associated amnesia, associated huge, associative identity disorder, things like that. Disassociation is probably a phenomenon that exists in the way our consciousness exists. Because we are constantly bombarded with stimuli. The nature of how consciousness exists is like our conscious awareness. It came into formation as a form of a traffic cop. It's like,  … “How do we discriminate what comes into our awareness and what we filter out?” And that is how consciousness exists. And so in order to do that, we have to split off stuff that we decide, behind the scenes, … We decide it is not relevant or not necessary. But that doesn't mean it's not coming in. Thalia: And so how is that related to alter ego? The conscious use of alter egos to allow us to do something we’ve always wantedPaul: Alter ego is a little bit more like a conscious choice in terms of, I'm going to have a different sort of role that I switch into. So it’s sort of like: I'm going to go dress up and play whatever kind of—not that I do cosplay, but like, where I'm going to go, like—you know, put on my party clothes.And I'm going to go to a club tonight, and I'm going to put on, like, that's a different version of who I am in my professional life, or whatever the thing is.DID is really about people who might naturally dissociate a little bit as children. And then they have a very clear kind of index trauma. And most of the time, according to literature, it's like sexual abuse. But it could be physical abuse. And what happens is that, because it's happening at a young age, before their real sense of self is sort of solidified, their way of dissociating is like a much more dramatic split. And it results in these sort of compensatory different parts of themselves. And we all have parts to us, you know, part of me that wants that chocolate bar. Part of me that doesn't. Part of me wants to go to the gym. Part of me wants to sit on the couch. Like we all have that. And that's another discussion that we can get into. But in this, it's not a conscious process. The choice is not really there on how or when to switch. It happens, for the most part, kind of adaptively to the situation for the purposes of survival. Thalia Toha: Is there a way for them to control it when they are diagnosed in adulthood? To then go back and, “OK, well, this is something that, this is the identity that I want to take on  …” —Is that possible?Paul: Yeah. I mean, that happens mostly through treatment. Through stages. You know, you work on sort of building up the ego, or the strengthening, or like the emotional regulation skills.Because the jumping between them very much happens in crisis. Or when they're overwhelmed. So if you build up some more skills, maybe that doesn't have to happen as often. You want them to be able to deal with the distress that comes up from things. Then once that's built up a while, you go and basically work through the original traumas. So, because those are the things that cause the split in the 1st place. And then, after all that’s worked through, then you can work on, hopefully, integration of the different sorts of alters. Or at least helping them work together better. As opposed to being at odd ends. Unlocking the power of having multiple interests and identities in Marvel’s Moon Knight seriesWhat was nice about Moon Knight, is it could sort of embody that a lot of times, these splits that happen are sort of polarities. They're two parts that are sort of fighting for control. And again, that happens in a lot of us, to a lesser extent. That chocolate bar example is like, I'm going to take the chocolate bar. And I'm going to eat it. And then I'm going to feel hugely guilty. And then I'm going to swear off chocolate for the next six months. When it really only lasts three days. And then I'll, you know, ping pong back and forth. We all have polarities. And in DID it's much more dramatic. And it's not something that goes through our common waking pathways. It's a complete jump in consciousness. Thalia: You mentioned you consulted for Moon Knight. And so it is fairly accurate that depiction that they had when the main hero—really, the archetype—and it's kind of interesting to see a hero struggling with this when he basically almost does not have any memory at all of what happened when he took on this other personality. Paul: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Oscar did a fantastic job, doing his own research on it. And Jeremy, the head writer did. Everybody did their own deep work in trying to represent this as accurately as possible. There are different ways that this can manifest. There's what's called sort of one-way versus two-way amnesia.One-way amnesia is one alter is essentially blind or amnestic to what the other alter is doing. But the second alter might know what the first alter has done. And generally, that happens through, basically, the newer alters having the memories of the older ones. But the older ones don't have access to the new one’s. Thalia: Well, because it's more recent of a memory?The new one is trying to adapt to, trying to help protect the first one. Protect them from having to experience the memories or whatever else. So, you have a fragile one 1st, and then your adaptive one is going to be the one that's like out in the world and going to be tougher. And it knows of the bad experiences. But it is trying to protect the earlier one from the negative one and negative experiences.So, it’s a little bit flipped on the show. And that's, you know, through some other creative choices. And, there's some other things that depart a little bit, which are just dramatic devices. Which you have to do within television to tell drama stories. Like him being able to see his alters through the mirror and have a conversation with him.That usually doesn't happen for the most part. There's also two way amnesia, where basically, like, neither one knows about the other. That can exist as well. Thalia: I can only imagine the type of  … I mean, I don't want to use the word “disruption.” But the type of life disruption, rather, in your life, that goes through if neither of the alter remembers anything. So then, how do you even function as an average human being? Living a normal life in the US and holding down a job when you want to do everythingPaul: Yeah, it can be very, very challenging for them to be able to hold down the job in that way. Because of the jumps between them. Sometimes, if one alter is aware of the other, they might carve out a way of functioning for them to help them have some semblance of normalcy. And the challenge is, if one side is just, if neither side is aware of the other one at all, then there's these periods of dysfunction that have no clear explanation. There's like lost time, and there's, just seemingly fall out of job after job.” Or things like, they can't quite have relationships. And it just doesn't quite make any sense. And that’s because they're not aware of all the other stuff that's happening. So it's tough. It often goes undiagnosed for a long time. Because there's so many other things that can pop up. And again, it's very arguable about how much it really exists. Because some people think it's under-diagnosed. Some people think it's over-diagnosed. And that it's extremely rare. I think it's probably rarer than we believe. I also think that the field of psychiatry and psychology is really poor at screening and teaching about dissociative disorders. Because we're so focused on anxiety and depression and psychotic disorders. Like schizophrenia, that gets sort of lumped into those categories. And nobody really teaches how to screen for dissociative disorders. It's my own bias, though. Thalia: And still to this day, in your opinion, that it’s still happening? So then, what about the times when he goes through, you know, different  … It almost seems like he goes through different realities? And that could just be a production choice or writing choice?Paul: Moon Knight is its own thing. Because they also throw in this whole, like, mystical … And, they play with in the last episodes,  … In the second to last episode, the unreliable narrator, sort of piece. It's like, which reality is reality? Is he on this boat? Is he in the hospital? So they're playing with a lot of things in there. I would say that the physical space is only really relevant if it brings about threat. Or something that requires switching to a different alter. To sort of have a better way of adapting to the circumstances. Thalia: So it does happen? Because you do see it in the series, that he kept changing between two, well actually three alters, right? We discovered there’s three. Paul: Yeah, we don't get a whole lot to that third one. Thalia: I sure hope that they're going to talk a little bit more about it.Paul: I think it's all up to Isaac. If Isaac wants to do another sequel to that. Right now, they’re listed as a limited series. But I suspect it's all,  … I'm not privy to these discussions. But my suspicion is that, if Oscar wanted to do another season of it, that they would probably work to make that happen. Thalia: Well, he did an incredible job separating the two. Because I could kind of tell the difference. I mean, aside from the accent, of course. But, I mean, having a third one, I felt like it would have been very easy for him to take on. But going back to your point on, you know, switching between the alters. I felt like there were moments in that depiction in the series where, you know, Marc switched to Steven. Steven switched to Marc, depending on the situation, right? During the softer moments, he switched to the softer alter. And during the kind of hardcore you know, pounding moments, he switched back.Paul: There's far less, essentially, research in terms of,  … I know of no research studies where they've taken somebody with DID, put them into a laboratory, and then studied, “How can you make somebody switch from one alter to the other?” So what we're sort of relying on—and those might be out there, I’ve just never seen them—But I've probably read hundreds of papers on DID. And I have my own patient population with various dissociative disorders. The closest we  ….When we think of these sort of polarities between our two sides and how we fight. When we push on one that may lead to the other pushing back. You may get them to back down for a little while. And then, they'll come screaming back another time. And so  …Thalia: How we fight with other people? Or within ourselves?Paul: Within ourselves. So I'll fight with my  … I'll use my chocolate bar example. Which is, I'm gonna, you know, fight my part that's craving. And be like, “Shut up, stop it. I don't want chocolate. I'm trying to lose weight. Come on.”And, like, I'll be OK for a minute. That's quiet for now. And then, like, when I'm least suspecting it, it's going like, creep up. And it's going to make me impulse buy something that's gonna take over. So with Marc and Steven, you know, they might sort of yell at each other. And one gets the other one to back off for a while. And then, you know, like Steven gets Marc to go away. And he’s like, “I'm never letting you have control.” And then the next thing you know, Marc’s punching him in the face in the desert, in the middle of the scene. So it's like, those are … the flip to that: The opposite sort of relationship. Rather than pushing back and forth, is sort of giving permission. And so as the series, as the season progresses, they become closer. They're less at odds with each other over time. They're able to communicate with each other. And by, I think, episode four, they're giving each other permission to take over from the body. And that's a little bit of a narrative choice as much as it might be realistic. What I would say is that it’s feasible. And so like, when we talk about it, “What's a common way that this occurs in real life?” And what's realistic for TV. Which is something we would throw around a lot of Chicago Med. Which is like, “Is this a feasible thing that could happen?”---in which we can structure a story within that framework.As opposed to: this is not how it usually occurs. but that's different than what we're trying to tell a story within a 40 minute or 60 minute framework. And so we have to cheat for time. And cheat for: How do we get there emotionally and make all of that stuff work at the same time? Living with an unshakable superpower within ourselves and others in the USThalia: And talking in terms of people who don't have DID. Which is the majority of the population. If you make a conscious choice switching between, you know, an alter ego of your own creation. Or one that you didn't realize you're taking on. But a type of personality who you can kind of call upon when it is needed. Is that something in your practice you've seen to be helpful? Is that something that …Paul: People with DID are, in the real world, are usually deeply troubled there. They have a lot of wounds from some deep traumas. And so, because this is a superhero show, there is a risk of a little bit of conflation of the disorder becoming the superpower. And I think even Mark has a line about that at one point. It was like,“You were the only superpower I ever had, or I ever needed.”I forget which line it is. And I think that for most people, that's not really their experience. It doesn't mean that it couldn't be. Because I think the nature of how DID and and these kinds of aspects of a person in terms of polarities emerges. It is that they have different kind of complimentary abilities. And it doesn't mean that you couldn't tap into those. I think a terrible comparison would be like Doll House. Which was a Joss Whedon show from some years ago. Where somebody, you know, they were all programmable people who developed all these different skills and different personalities. But it was all like computer programming, basically, and brain washing. But then eventually they can learn to tap into those different skill sets in different situations consciously. And I think that that is not outside of the realm of theoretical possibility. You know, if I'm doing hypnosis work with somebody, you can teach somebody to tap into certain unconscious abilities and kind of, for lack of a better terms, to channel them. Their own certain intuitions. Or their own instincts about how to handle a situation. And, and that's maybe in line with, you know, being more integrated within yourself, even if you don't have DID. Thalia: I do feel like there are times when, “OKAY, in this situation, I'm going to be a little bit more …  I think I'm more of an introverted side. But I'm going to be a little more extroverted in this situation. And here, it's time for me to sit back.” And, and I don't know if that's just a very kind of diluted version of what's informing DID. I don't want to say that necessarily that's the ingredients of that. Paul: We all have sort of, for most part, in order to survive in, like, modern society. Many times we have to take on some aspect of an identity that is sort of foreign or external. So, I'm not particularly … I'm not Christian. I'm not hugely religious in that way. But if somebody, if your kid and you're told, “Don't drink in church.” You're not allowed to drink in church. So you go into church like bad kids. Like only bad kids drink in church. So you're like a good kid, and you want to be holy or fit in with this group. And so you want to suppress your own thirst. And you equate you, you've now created this sort of division between your own sort of bodily needs. And this identity that you want to fit and make a part of you, which is about being religious in this way. And these two are in battle now. And so it's a very common experience for those things to both now be part of you and both of them have their functions. As you get older, hopefully you can assess if this is really realistic. And then, you know, these needs don't go away. That you’ll need to catch up on your water supply and drink some water after church. But that these are the battles that we all kind of fight. Because we've taken on whatever roles and identities that we believe were supposed to fit into, that often come at the expense of our own immediate need. And there's a tension there. And when the tension gets great enough, there can be some internal sort of breaking. And so that's when you get to much deeper kind of problems with those sorts of conflicts. What will really happen to long-buried interests we ignoredThalia: Because I noticed this a lot. Like with mid-life crisis, when people hit a certain age, they want to go back to certain things that, perhaps—not they’ve never explored—but something that they never developed. Or never fully developed. And kind of, they want to kind of call upon that again. Paul: Yeah, it's very related. There's a different sort of more particular psychology schools that calls for parts therapy. There's various forms of this. There's something called internal family systems. Gestalt therapy. Ego state therapy. All sort of our parts-related therapies. That once we've sort of split off that part of us that has that need, that a part of us can get sort of stuck at that age. So it might be a kid. Like I see plenty of people who they grew up very fast because they had to. And then part of them just get sort of split off. And they reach some point later in age, and that part of them that's been suppressed or diconnected, starts crying back, saying, “Hey, I'm still here. I still have needs.” And then it's like, “OKAY, how old is that kid?” And if you ask that person to get in touch with that kid, they'll know exactly how old it is. They'll be like, she's seven. And, “OK, what happened when you were seven?” And you can go laser right into it. Zoom right into it. And so it's about, how do you heal and reintegrate that part of you that's been put away? You know, there's other versions, like in the Inner Child work. That's what that inner child is. In Jungian psychology, that's the part of the shadow. These parts of you that have split off, that continue to exist that are still you. They're crying, they're crying for attention. And part of growing and getting past that midlife crisis is basically like the person who said, like, “OKAY, I'm just gonna work this career my whole life. And they realize, my god, I haven't had fun in 25 years. I gotta have fun again.” Who's crying for fun? It's that kid. Give that kid some fun. Let them experience life. And this is, I think really be some of the art of life is like, how can you have both? Because otherwise we had caught in these huge pendulums that make, like, the person, the cliche, midlife crisis is, “I'm gonna throw away my entire family and go by a sports car and have an affair and go run away to an island somewhere.”And that's great for, like, six months. And then like the facade starts to like the fantasy starts to fade away, and then like, oh **** So it's like, now I need to, like, figure something out, or the person I was having an affair with now wants a family. Now I'm just repeating the cycle. So the real art of it is figuring out, “How can you have play and all of the other things you want?” So you don't neglect any aspects of yourself. Which is tricky because we live in such a demanding society. Which is tricky. Because we live in such a demanding society.Thalia: Right. So you're saying, basically, when you have this other part of you, or multiple parts of you, that you aren't kindling over the course of the years. It is going to show up at some point. So really, the art is to continue to visit it. Paul: Yeah. So, so being able to, sometimes those parts come out in ways that we have labeled as really bad. So that part is reckless, or that part is, you know, irresponsible or something. That part might be just angry or frustrated, or whatever it might be. And I don't want to admit that I have that in myself. But, yeah, is it like, how can you have—and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a sports car—but like, how can you give yourself some room for for play. While also having this other life that you have built for yourself? Hopefully your life is not so rigidly structured that there's not any room for it. That's sort of the thing to figure out a carve out. Because we are all in the nature of these parts, kind of these living contradictions. Which is also how, probably what dimensionalizes characters in fiction. When we see these sort of, when we see two sides to them. As opposed to just a single side. Thalia: So is the answer to consider letting go of obligations that we don't necessarily—maybe isn't that important—or isn't that urgent? Is that part of the process as well? Paul: I guess I'd like to soften it a little bit, like, how can you examine your expectations and the toll it's taking on you and say, like, you know, “What's being neglected here for days or months or years?” And how do I make up for that? If I work a really long day at work, like I'm tired and I need, like a reset day. So I'll try to find a way to carve that out. Because I realize that I need to make up for it in some way. If you've been working, if you've been a workaholic 18 hours a day for decades or years, or however long it is. Then, what aspects of you haven't really had time to breathe? Is it about, like, I don't know, “Do you want to learn the piano?” Or do you want to, like, you know, have something else that is like for you. As opposed to for somebody else. Or trying to prove something. And trying to find ways to give space for that at the same time.The comparison I make, sometimes, is like any kind of balance. Finding balance. It is not something you achieve. It's like a teeter-totter. It's like you're constantly meaningful and back trying to find what the right balance is. It’s a constant adjustment. Thalia: Yeah. Is it balance? Because I know people talk about balance. Paul: Yeah, there may be a different analogy. I guess the balance is, if it's a teeter toddler one, you're still having swing. But you want the swings to be less and less. Or you want to make sure that you're countering as much as. You're, you're going in one direction, you're going in the other as well. So I don't know what a better metaphor is. I welcome one though, if you have any ideas. Thalia: I’m still searching, that's why I'm asking. A path less traveled: Working without ever needing to sacrifice what you really wanted to do in the USThalia Toha: But I want to ask you about …  because I know that when people hear that you consult for Moon Knight, of course, the question that a lot of listeners would have in their mind is, “Well, how DID you get to consult for Moon Knight? And I'm familiar with, slightly, your story. But why don’t you tell everyone just kind of how that came about? Paul: I mean, I've got a couple different hats that I wear. So one of them is, I'm also a TV writer. I've been doing that for a number of years. So I live in LA. And, you meet a lot of people and talk about what you're doing. And so what ends up happening is people would just reach out to me for questions about character. Or about how to represent things around mental health. Or how can I do a more interesting representation of this aspect of the story through a mental health lens. And so I just ended up starting to answer questions. I get pulled into consulting as one-offs. So, a lot of times for no money and no credit. With a couple of nonprofits that try to improve accuracy for TV and film and health care in general or science. And so in the process of that, I just met a lot of people. I also have a …  I'm a psychiatrist. So I have a private practice. While I'm a generalist, I'll kind of see all commerce. And I do medication management, psycho-pharmacology. I also trained in various forms of psychotherapy, including hypnosis. And I've carved out this other kind of niche around dissociative disorders. Just a little bit by accident. I had some particular cases that I saw that were very interesting severe dissociative disorder cases. And hypnosis is sort of an associative phenomena. Which ended up giving me already, unfortunately, more expertise than a lot of other people in my field.And so what happened was a former supervisee, who I teach at UCLA, who knew someone who was an executive at Disney, passed my name on. And so Disney reached out and said, “Hey, we're putting this thing together. Would you want to be involved?” At the time, I was writing for Chicago Med on NBC. So I didn't have time to go over there as a writer. But I said, I can help you out as a consultant. And so, I did that for the two year process, making that show. So it went on for quite a while. And so similar things that have happened to other. I'm on Bel-Air right now. And then again, probably consulting on like 25 projects or something at this point. Thalia: Yeah. And I think people don't realize how long that is. And, I mean, you say two years. But who knows how many more months and years they've been sort of cooking with that idea. It could have been an extra couple of years, perhaps. Right? Paul: Yeah. The Marvel process is particularly long. Because they do a long gestation period with a Marvel executive/ producer. And they sort of kick it around with a head writer for a while. First, they have people come in, I think, and pitch their version of it. Then they pick who it's going to be. Then they kick around and blue sky the idea for a while. And then eventually they form a mini room. And then they eventually bring in a director. And after they have some scripts in the pipeline … It's a long process and much longer than those TV shows take to put out. If you're doing a regular TV show, if you get 6 to 9 months to put out a full and write a full season worth of scripts, like, yeah. Anyway.Thalia: Yeah, it's, it's a while. And I'm kind of, I wonder if also, during the process, because you see a lot of the … particularly the cast when they go and they're out in public promoting their films, a lot of times, the big thing is not being able to talk about certain things. Paul: I mean, it's very … Marvel is especially secretive. Again, they could be six months into working on a second season of Moon Knight, and I would have no idea. I've consulted on, in various forms, on four of their shows. Like I did a one off for Iron Heart and some other ones from the Netflix period.Literally, the old building I went into once: It was a keypad entry to enter the building. And then you get into a main hallway. And the main hallway has keypads to get into an office. And then the office has sub offices. And every sub office has another key card entry. So it's so locked down. They're very particular about their secrets. And it’s understandable. They've made a huge amount … They had a very successful run with all of their projects. So whatever they're doing is working. Thalia: Yeah. And so many people are involved. So you have to somewhat … And it is in the service of the audience and people who are watching for these things. For it not to get out. Because you want to put out the best product and the best series and the best movies. So you don't want to destroy it, right? It's kind of like a restaurant chef. You don't want to send out the dish half-baked. If you want to send it out, when you have all the ingredients together. Paul: Yeah. And I think that they take a while. It takes a while to bake it. So if they want to–sometimes a project can have a huge pivot, I think, when they bring on a new team member, like the director or something. Thalia: What is the … Because you kind of touched on a little bit of the assembly line, a little bit. As far as starting with, maybe the idea, and then whatever it is. Is it usually script and then the investor? And then … Paul: It really depends on the project. So some of the bigger sort of breakdowns are …[TO BE CONTINUED]—Subscribe to be updated when Episode 2 drops.Living in the US is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Living in the US at livingintheus.substack.com/subscribe